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Linus odia C++

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No sabía si ponerlo acá o en programación, pero creo que acá: Ya la verdad ...

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    #1 Linus odia C++
    No sabía si ponerlo acá o en programación, pero creo que acá: Ya la verdad que este tipo me tiene las bolas llenas, es imbancable. Si no quiere utilizar C++ en sus proyectos bueno, cosa suya, pero yo he visto kernels hechos con C++ y hasta utilizan la STL y todo, y él encima dice que la STL no es portable ni estable.... pero por favor... en fin. Me parece que tiene menos fundamentos que Bill Gates cuando hablaba de los peligros del software libre..., yo me quedo con C++ y los hermosos proyectos que están hechos con el (QT y KDE principalmente ) Y dicho sea de paso el siempre que tanto criticaba a GNOME y defendía a KDE... pues para su información GNOME está hecho en C y KDE en C++.... que pedazo de infeliz...

    http://www.theinquirer.es/2007/09/24/linus_odia_c.html
    http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.v...43/focus=57918

    Saludos.
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  • #2 Re: Linus odia C++

    True.
    What a blinking git! isn't he?

    Hablando en serio, hasta aquí:

    C++ is a horrible language. It's made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it's much much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do *nothing* but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C.
    no me parece que esté realmente justificando nada, al contrario.

    Está claro que para él C++ eleva demasiado el nivel del lenguaje.
    Me llama la atención que un programador de su calibre utilice argumentos de ése estilo. Por otro lado C no va a limitarlo tampoco.

    Sin embargo éste si me parece un buen argumento:

    Escrito por Dmitry Kakurin en respuesta a Linus Torvalds...

    As dinosaurs (who code exclusively in C) are becoming extinct, you will soon find yourself alone with attitude like this.
    Measuring number of people who contributed to Git is incorrect metric. Obviously C++ developers can contribute C code. But assuming that they prefer it that way is wrong.

    I was coding in Assembly when there was no C.
    Then in C before C++ was created.
    Now days it's C++ and C#, and I have never looked back.
    Bad developers will write bad code in any language. But penalizing
    good developers for this illusive reason of repealing bad contributors is nonsense
    .

    Anyway I don't mean to start a religious C vs. C++ war. It's a matter of beliefs and as such pointless.
    I just wanted to get a sense of how many people share this "Git should be in pure C" doctrine.
    Igualmente las decisiones sobre el diseño de git hoy no son exclusivamente de él.
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  • Usuario inexistente escribió hace 2 años ¿Mensaje inapropiado?

    #3 Re: Linus odia C++

    Si, creo que ya hace rato había leído algo así, pero creo que lo que Linus odia no es C++ sino C++ en el kernel de Linux, tal vez estoy equivocado ya que lo leí hace bastante (a parte de que mi inglés no es muy bueno para entender lo que postearon).
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  • #4 Re: Linus odia C++

    Pero no veo cual es la historia...
    O sea, el tipo creo que sabra programar mas que todos nosotros juntos, que critique a c, a c++ o a ada me da lo mismo, es una cuestion de su gusto...

    Hace tiempo me puse a leer el "hacker how-to" de Eric Raymond... les dejo un fragmento

    Learn how to program.

    This, of course, is the fundamental hacking skill. If you don't know any computer languages, I recommend starting with Python. It is cleanly designed, well documented, and relatively kind to beginners. Despite being a good first language, it is not just a toy; it is very powerful and flexible and well suited for large projects. I have written a more detailed evaluation of Python. Good tutorials are available at the Python web site.
    Java is also a good language for learning to program in. It is more difficult than Python, but produces faster code than Python. I think it makes an excellent second language. (There used to be a problem with Java because it was proprietary, but Sun is remedying that and the difficuties should entirely vanish with the final code drop in early 2007.)
    But be aware that you won't reach the skill level of a hacker or even merely a programmer if you only know one or two languages — you need to learn how to think about programming problems in a general way, independent of any one language. To be a real hacker, you need to get to the point where you can learn a new language in days by relating what's in the manual to what you already know. This means you should learn several very different languages.
    If you get into serious programming, you will have to learn C, the core language of Unix. C++ is very closely related to C; if you know one, learning the other will not be difficult. Neither language is a good one to try learning as your first, however. And, actually, the more you can avoid programming in C the more productive you will be.
    C is very efficient, and very sparing of your machine's resources. Unfortunately, C gets that efficiency by requiring you to do a lot of low-level management of resources (like memory) by hand. All that low-level code is complex and bug-prone, and will soak up huge amounts of your time on debugging. With today's machines as powerful as they are, this is usually a bad tradeoff — it's smarter to use a language that uses the machine's time less efficiently, but your time much more efficiently. Thus, Python.
    Other languages of particular importance to hackers include Perl and LISP. Perl is worth learning for practical reasons; it's very widely used for active web pages and system administration, so that even if you never write Perl you should learn to read it. Many people use Perl in the way I suggest you should use Python, to avoid C programming on jobs that don't require C's machine efficiency. You will need to be able to understand their code.
    LISP is worth learning for a different reason — the profound enlightenment experience you will have when you finally get it. That experience will make you a better programmer for the rest of your days, even if you never actually use LISP itself a lot. (You can get some beginning experience with LISP fairly easily by writing and modifying editing modes for the Emacs text editor, or Script-Fu plugins for the GIMP.)
    It's best, actually, to learn all five of Python, C/C++, Java, Perl, and LISP. Besides being the most important hacking languages, they represent very different approaches to programming, and each will educate you in valuable ways.
    I can't give complete instructions on how to learn to program here — it's a complex skill. But I can tell you that books and courses won't do it (many, maybe most of the best hackers are self-taught). You can learn language features — bits of knowledge — from books, but the mind-set that makes that knowledge into living skill can be learned only by practice and apprenticeship. What will do it is (a) reading code and (b) writing code.
    Peter Norvig, who is one of Google's top hackers and the co-author of the most widely used textbook on AI, has written an excellent essay called Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years. His "recipe for programming success" is worth careful attention.
    Learning to program is like learning to write good natural language. The best way to do it is to read some stuff written by masters of the form, write some things yourself, read a lot more, write a little more, read a lot more, write some more ... and repeat until your writing begins to develop the kind of strength and economy you see in your models.
    Finding good code to read used to be hard, because there were few large programs available in source for fledgeling hackers to read and tinker with. This has changed dramatically; open-source software, programming tools, and operating systems (all built by hackers) are now widely available


    Saludos!!
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  • #5 Re: Linus odia C++

    Que lindo como expone el tipo el arte de programar, se nota que realmente le gusta lo que hace. A mi realmente me gusta mucho la programacion, pero al mismo tiempo me "asusta" el ambiente demasiado competitivo y egocentrico que hay entre porgamadores. Por eso si alguna vez aprendo a programar lo voy a hacer como dice Eric, de manera autodidacta y comprendiendo la logica mas que el lenguaje.

    Saludos!!
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  • #6 Re: Linus odia C++

    Me acabo de dar cuenta que movi totalmente el hilo de la conversacion.
    Disculpen.
    Algun moderador que mueva el mensaje para otro lado, porque sino se va a armar cualquiera.

    Mis disculpas eze.
    Saludos.
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  • #7 Re: Linus odia C++

    La verdad que a Linus le gusta discutir y bastante, pero me parece que a veces dice la cosas de caliente y no se fija. Despues fundamenta un poco mas su repuesta:

    To be very specific:
    - simple and clear core datastructures, with *very* lean and aggressive
    code to manage them that takes the whole approach of "simplicity over
    fancy" to the extreme.
    - a willingness to not abstract away the data structures and algorithms,
    because those are the *whole*point* of core git.

    And if you want a fancier language, C++ is absolutely the worst one to
    choose. If you want real high-level, pick one that has true high-level
    features like garbage collection or a good system integration, rather than
    something that lacks both the sparseness and straightforwardness of C,
    *and* doesn't even have the high-level bindings to important concepts.

    IOW, C++ is in that inconvenient spot where it doesn't help make things
    simple enough to be truly usable for prototyping or simple GUI
    programming, and yet isn't the lean system programming language that C is
    that actively encourags you to use simple and direct constructs.
    Igual creo , como dice Duke Forever, que es bastante egocentrico.

    Saludos
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  • #8 Re: Linus odia C++

    Linus, es un buen programador que tuvo una gran idea. Nada mas que eso.
    Al parecer este tipo tiene un caracter bastante iracundo, sino recordemos los flame war donde estuvo involucrado:
    Linus vs Tanenbaum: microkernel Vs monolitico
    Kde vs gnome
    C vs C++


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  • #9 Re: Linus odia C++

    Concuerdo con que es muy egocentrico.
    Pero vamos, que esperamos ahora, que linus sea un pibe de barrio con el que te puedas juntar a tomar mate o a resolver problemas usando c?
    El loco sabe que es uno de los actores fundamentales de la informatica moderna, tiene peso y decision en mucho de lo que le pasa a esta comunidad, nos guste o no... Y despues toma posiciones, a vos te puede gustar, o no te puede gustar, ese es otro tema... Es casi politico, diria yo...

    Pero no caigamos en la de siempre, que es ningunear a linus. Yo se que a muchos de ustedes les cae mal, ya discutimos esto en el post dodne hablaba de stallman... Pero a veces se van al carajo, sea un forro o no, el tipo aporto cosas....
    A mi me parece que es bastante mas que un "buen programador con una buena idea".

    Una cosa, es que nos pongamos a discutir sobre ideales, sobre si esta mejor lo de stallman o lo de linus... pero poner a discutir la opinion que tiene el loco de tal o cual lenguaje...

    En fin, saludos!
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  • #10 Re: Linus odia C++

    No le veo sentido a este thread.
    Saludos.
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